Curse

Gli · Jul 16, 2011, 09:27 AM // 09:27

The hard mode scavenger spawns in the Minister Cho's Estate explorable are completely unreasonable for an area of party size 4.

I'm not talking about the WoC quest taking place there, the one with the 3 peasants, but the scavengers that populate the area, even in hard mode, after you finish that quest in normal mode.

The area is swarming with groups of 6 scavengers, using PvX quality builds with many counters, much healing and protection, and quite a lot of damage. It's doable, to be sure, but it takes much time to cut through them, and the difficulty is much much higher than that of most elite areas, mostly because of the limited party size

That's pretty stupid to begin with, for a starter area, but the worst of it is, it completely wipes away the ability for people to play together if their professions don't form the basis of a decent party setup to deal with such enemies.

A few people in my guild, myself included, have started to try and get to 50/50 HoM on a secondary account, and we often play together again now, where we hadn't before on account of not playing much at all anymore. We hadn't started on vanquishing the small party size areas yet and thought we'd better go ahead and get it over with before doing the WoC hard mode quests.

As it stands, we were too late, we should've done so before doing any WoC quests it seems. If the spawns of Cho's place don't change, we'll get that vanquish done eventually, but each of us will have to do it alone with a completely optimized set of 3 heroes. This kind of nonsense has us not wanting to play again for the moment though, which can't be the point of new content.

Before posting derogatory responses to this, please take a moment and actually have a look at the MCE explorable on HM with scavenger spawns. And try to vanquish it with a party of 2 human rangers, one of whom isn't exactly an 'elite' player, no cons, and any 2 heroes you like.

akelarumi · Jul 16, 2011, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Cause im trying to vanguish all of factions on my paragon I didn't take the quests. But the person im doing it with unfortunally did. I haven't seen minister's Cho estate but I found out when we did Shadow's passage. It was really late and wanted to do one final very small vanguish. It was filled with red dots but we made it at 59% DP.

Though I remember a simular discussion in the time of WiK what actually did the same to several area's. And I'm hoping when all parts of WoC are released, they revert area's back to normal (or atleast the same lvl and groupssize as it was before).

I do hope however that anet in the future will put a warning in the quests, wich you have to answer with yes that this will change the area even after you've done the quest.

Missing HB · Jul 16, 2011, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

The area is swarming with groups of 6 scavengers, using PvX quality builds with many counters, much healing and protection, and quite a lot of damage. It's doable, to be sure, but it takes much time to cut through them, and the difficulty is much much higher than that of most elite areas, mostly because of the limited party size

/signed for this reason. PvX builds + hero IA decrease doesn't fit at all in such a place. Indeed, i just tried myself and it's clearly impossible, considering the spawns are quite random and they're patrolling quite much... Even on those quests , i ended up killing whole all since i couldn't avoid anything....

The main issue is that you have no choice and need to run THE build amongst all possibilites if you want to finish all areas now ... pretty sad

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 16, 2011, 09:59 AM // 09:59

/signed.

Pre- WoC Vanquishing of Minister Cho's estate is/was about the right amount of challenge for vanquishing for Newb Island.

halfies · Jul 16, 2011, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Vanquishing noob island is still endgame content in theory, so it should be about as hard as all the vanquishes in factions.
also, i dont get why people are complaining about it. when WoC finishes, it will probably go back to normal, just like with WiK. and if you were stupid enough to start content that alters spawns when your going for canthan vanquisher, you deserve it. it was obviously going to get harder

CorDa616 · Jul 16, 2011, 10:19 AM // 10:19

/sighed

The quest on it's own is hard enough in NM if you play with friends. But trying to vanquish it afterwards? Hell no. I'm on 32/33 on my vanquisher and I'm sure you can get which one I still need to do.

Gli · Jul 16, 2011, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfies

Vanquishing noob island is still endgame content in theory, so it should be about as hard as all the vanquishes in factions.

And it isn't. It's much harder than any other vanquish or anything at all, really, in the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfies

also, i dont get why people are complaining about it. when WoC finishes, it will probably go back to normal, just like with WiK.

Probably not. The whole idea of the WoC quests is to permanently change aspects of the game. Will Shiro come again after WoC and taint the new people on Minister Cho's Estate, creating the same old same old weak afflicted? It's called Winds of Change, not Winds of Same Old Same Old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfies

and if you were stupid enough to start content that alters spawns when your going for canthan vanquisher, you deserve it. it was obviously going to get harder

Harder was to be expected. Verging on the impossible unless you stick to a very limited and undesirable game plan is what we got.

Venganza · Jul 16, 2011, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I constantly bemoan the fact the game is just too damn easy now, hell I did most of Foundry with Koss and stuff for kicks (no cons)...

However, I tend to agree with the OP, Cho's is far too hard for anything but ideal setups (and even then no pushover in HM).

Naturally no one can expect just any old random group to be able to romp through a vanquish, if four warriors think they have some God given right to be able to vanquish it without healer, then tough titties! What the OP is saying is perfectly reasonable however, you should be able to successfully complete a HM vanquish with a fairly broad array of skills/classes, I dare anyone to diverge too far from what work there however

It comes as a shock to me, but I have to admit, I think the difficulty on this one in HM is a bridge too far for many players out there, and that comes down to the Devs not taking the wider player base into proper consideration when putting the mobs together.

Sure it is doable, but I found it very hard going indeed with a good team. I suspect there are a great many players who simply will not be able to manage it, and will be disillusioned by the experience, and that is rather sad.

I am all for a tough challenge, but not one that might disenfranchise a large part of the player base.

Xenomortis · Jul 16, 2011, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

I dare anyone to diverge too far from what work there however

You need to rethink this statement. ;p

I've not tried vanquishing Minister Cho's Estate after doing the quest yet, so I can't really comment.
But looking at the Scavanger bars on the wiki, this does look like it'll be more challenging than other vanquishes, but it really depends on the size of the enemy groups. 4 man groups should be fairly manageable, 6 would be much harder.

Gli · Jul 16, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

They are groups of 6, with a more or less random distribution of professions. Some combinations of 6 are practically unbreakable thanks to a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation and healing.

I've seen groups with 4 ringleaders, another group with 3 witches, that last one had 14 minions already up and running before we aggroed them.

Quizor Broham · Jul 16, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Yeah, you get the same sort of thing in Haiju Lagoon too actually. I don't think it's quite as bad there (especially since max party size is 6) but those scavenger groups can be really brutal.

Essence Snow · Jul 16, 2011, 03:30 PM // 15:30

tbh I'd be more for adding some unique drops to these foes or some sorta vq reward for completing this as is than having it changed, but thats just me

Xenomortis · Jul 16, 2011, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Having payed a short trip to this place, I'm somewhat inclined to agree with the OP.
It seems odd to have groups for a Vanquish that are significantly harder than the groups faced in the Hard Mode quest. But since vanquishing is completely optional, they may choose to ignore it. Having to fight 6 of these guys is pretty steep when you only get 4 people.

I'd be willing to bet this was an oversight, but you never know. It seems likely though, given Haiju Lagoon and Zen Daijun have it the same way, only you're allowed 6 people to fight them and that makes it significantly easier.

Jeydra · Jul 16, 2011, 05:13 PM // 17:13

/ambivalent

I found vanquishing Minister Cho's Estate (at least, the first few mobs; I didn't go for the full VQ) to be about as difficult as the original mission itself - in fact, borderline easier without Afflicted explosions to decimate minions. Once I identified which monsters were the healers / MMs / hard res, everything just fell into place. I did use aggro techniques as a matter of course, but then aggro techniques are already required in so many areas so ...

That said, I'm much more skilled than most people, so my experience may be extremely polarized.

Chthon · Jul 16, 2011, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That said, I'm much more skilled than most people, so my experience may be extremely polarized.

Humble too.

I haven't played it at all, but the impression that I'm getting from this thread is that this area is too hard for what a vanquish is supposed to be. Just because it can be done (by Jeydra at least) does not mean that it's appropriate for a VQ.

Simplest solution is probably just to cut the mobs down to 3-4 monsters each.

PurpleFission · Jul 16, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Solo vqing minister cho just got a whole lot harder :/

Kunder · Jul 16, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Its not undoable hard or even annoying but bearably hard (-> Tracking the Corruption), but I don't really like the idea of vanquishes becoming significantly harder after doing quests in the first place. A flat level or mob size reduction would be good. After all, it doesn't make much sense for the mere scavengers to be fielding groups worthy of HM elite areas.

cthulhu reborn · Jul 16, 2011, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I dunno, I have done this one also in HM on my mesmer but the HM quest is just really annoying. After I did it, I actually was so sick of it, I can't be bothered to continue on in HM.

I just lost interest. The whole quests revolves and pulling properly and letting spirits handle the mob with the npc while the part stands back. It's tedious start to finish...not too hard, especially with cons. Why did we use cons at all? Well the last group has a risk of killing the peasant if you don't aggro right or have a bit of bad luck and the party wipes. So make sure your dp is gone, take a longer route to be safe and use some speed boost cons (celerity or cupcakes will do) and charge in for the last one.

Is it too hard? Not really, once you know the trick. Is it just annoying even when you know how to do it? Yes. I think so.

I see the point in making something harder to do, but then there is this thing about the actual changes that happen when you finish it all. Am I supposed to do this will all my characters individually? I don't think so. I have too many. Again too tedious. Even in NM it gets boring quickly because it's all very much very similar and if the skins I've seen on the forum for the new imperial weapons are going to be the ones, it's all for nothing anyways because I don't like em. So I stopped doing them anyways.

Oh well, it kept me busy for a couple of days.

Gli · Jul 16, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I dunno, I have done this one also in HM on my mesmer but the HM quest is just really annoying. After I did it, I actually was so sick of it, I can't be bothered to continue on in HM.

I just lost interest. The whole quests revolves and pulling properly and letting spirits handle the mob with the npc while the part stands back. It's tedious start to finish...not too hard, especially with cons. Why did we use cons at all? Well the last group has a risk of killing the peasant if you don't aggro right or have a bit of bad luck and the party wipes. So make sure your dp is gone, take a longer route to be safe and use some speed boost cons (celerity or cupcakes will do) and charge in for the last one.

Is it too hard? Not really, once you know the trick. Is it just annoying even when you know how to do it? Yes. I think so.

I see the point in making something harder to do, but then there is this thing about the actual changes that happen when you finish it all. Am I supposed to do this will all my characters individually? I don't think so. I have too many. Again too tedious. Even in NM it gets boring quickly because it's all very much very similar and if the skins I've seen on the forum for the new imperial weapons are going to be the ones, it's all for nothing anyways because I don't like em. So I stopped doing them anyways.

Oh well, it kept me busy for a couple of days.

This thread is not about the quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

After all, it doesn't make much sense for the mere scavengers to be fielding groups worthy of HM elite areas.

That's another thing right there. Lore-wise, this doesn't make sense at all. These guys are supposed to be scavengers? Oooooookay... Guys like these could conquer continents without breaking a sweat.

I want to stress that I don't have any problem with difficult content. The biggest problem I have with this is that it turns the game into a single player game. There isn't a single vanquish in the game that you can't do with a handful of random player professions, as long as you round out the team.

Even every other existing party size 4 area can be easily vanquished with 2 random professions and 2 heroes chosen to complement them. This one... I wouldn't look forward to trying it with 2 rangers, which is how a guildie and I vanquished our way through the game years ago, with our main characters.

Jeydra · Jul 17, 2011, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I know Chthon, but you have to accept that my experience is not going to be the same as that of most players ...

Anyway I would be very surprised if two turret Rangers + 2 spirit spammers cannot do this quest. It might take a while, but no reason it can't be done.